Neta class loops

Neta class loops

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Neta class loops - 9/24/2008 8:35:02 PM

motofire

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This was an idea brought up by Steve C in the Exeter thread. That thread was all over the place so I figured I would start a new theread and keep it on topic. Heres his idea.

Any thoughts on my suggestion to run 4 loops for everyone riding "Novice" sections (plus Senior Advanced) and 5 for everyone riding "Expert" sections? Can't keep it much simpler than that...

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RE: Neta class loops - 9/24/2008 10:21:27 PM

motofire

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SteveC

Any thoughts on my suggestion to run 4 loops for everyone riding "Novice" sections (plus Senior Advanced) and 5 for everyone riding "Expert" sections? Can't keep it much simpler than that...

Yeah sure it works for me.

Though the INT's may want to do 5 loops.

Post #: 2

RE: Neta class loops - 9/24/2008 10:55:11 PM

blackduc98

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Then what will be the difference between Sr.B and Novice? The only reason I switched from Novice to Sr.B was to go down to 4 loops because 5 made me rush too much. BTW, I am very NEW, so to me this proposal doesn't really matter, but to someone in Sr.B who actually competes for championship points the idea of having to duke it out against young guys might be unwelcome.

If you still want to go with the 4-loop idea, then perhaps to address the age disadvantage you might adopt an age-weighted scoring formula. For example, anyone over 40 years old would receive customary deductions for dabs, etc. But anyone under 40 who rides only 4 loops would have their score multiplied by an "age factor". Since going from 5 to 4 loops is a 20% reduction in effort, I propose an age multiplier of 1.2 for all those under-40 slackers. As an example, a Sr.B rider who scores 50 points will end up with a final score of 50, whereas a Novice rider who scores 50 points will end up with a final score of 60. But if that Novice rider chooses to ride all 5 loops, then he does not get penalized with the 1.2 age factor.

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RE: Neta class loops - 9/25/2008 7:15:25 AM

1863Bill

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I guess I'm missing something. Even if the Sr. B class and Novice class ride the same number of loops, they are still two distinct classes and the Seniors only compete against the Seniors while the Novices compete against the Novices. Right?

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RE: Neta class loops - 9/25/2008 9:53:47 AM

tbutland

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This seems like a good time to start some discussion on changes we could propose for next year. I like the idea of 4 loops for Novice & Senior riders, as it gives the Novices more time to focus on the sections and saves some wear & tear on us mature guys. I've been thinking of bringing forward the idea of having the trials masters create a C-line in all sections, as this would give the riders some more flexibility in the level they ride. At the beginner of the year the rider could declare their line, so it would be Novice C or Novice B and Senior C or Senior B. I put in several C lines in our Vt event, it wasn't that much extra effort. The only problem with that, was it was alittle misguided in my mind, as I did it for the Junior riders, who it turns out are more skilled then most B level riders. I would also make sure we had a C level loop. The area I'm having some trouble with, is should we also make the C line an auto promotion level, if the rider scores a certain amount of points, to discourage pure sand bagging, zero loops and the pain of ride offs,etc. We used to have auto promotion in years gone bye, I thought it worked pretty well.

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RE: Neta class loops - 9/25/2008 10:10:03 AM

motofire

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quote:

ORIGINAL: blackduc98

Then what will be the difference between Sr.B and Novice? The only reason I switched from Novice to Sr.B was to go down to 4 loops because 5 made me rush too much. BTW, I am very NEW, so to me this proposal doesn't really matter, but to someone in Sr.B who actually competes for championship points the idea of having to duke it out against young guys might be unwelcome.

Vitaly,

As Steve proposed they would still be different classes.

Post #: 6

RE: Neta class loops - 9/25/2008 10:58:20 AM

laser1

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I think the use of the C-Line would improve many of the issues addressed in the prior thread.

IMHO - Basing section difficulty off of either of the "tails" of the talent distribution is a mistake.
If you set it up for one or two of the best riders in the class, (to get some points) it's too hard for alot of folks and maybe dangerous for some. But the flip side is that if you set it up for the rank novices, it will most likely result in the event being to easy for the majority of the class and really low scores.

I personally hate ride throughs and prefer a challenge - but not one that is life threatening either. That can be a really hard line to walk for the people setting up the sections if having to consider the few riders on the extreem of the talent distribution in each class. Some people successfully address this by providing alot of options in the section design - dont want to do the big hit? fine, you have to make some tight turns to go around it. However, while this is ideal, it's still pretty hard to implement systematically.

So I for one (or two) like the idea of using / sharing a c-line with the Jr's. Im not sure of the exact implementation but feel it would help provide some advantages worth the change:

1) Lets adult "beginers" or "1st year novices" ride the loop with there buddies that they have been practicing with while not possibly getting hurt riding the "b" line. Im assuming the Loop would be considered here as well.. I think this would help address some of the points Dan mentioned. I would also add that I dont think we call them beginers, but thats another subject.

2) Lets the B-Line trial masters not have to worry about if a rank novice will get hurt on a relatively smple (to most in the class)
obstacle and make them (the section difficulty) a better fit for the majority. (set up for the average rider is the best way to make the most people happy)

3) Jr "B"'s would be novices, Jr "C"'s -C liners. (Im not sure about this - but throwing it out there anyway)

4) Provide smaller steps between the classes.

My 2-cents worth on the c-line being a great way to improve the sport for the most people.

Post #: 7

RE: Neta class loops - 9/25/2008 11:51:49 AM

blackduc98

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From: MA - Boston area
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 1863Bill
I guess I'm missing something. Even if the Sr. B class and Novice class ride the same number of loops, they are still two distinct classes and the Seniors only compete against the Seniors while the Novices compete against the Novices. Right?

Yes that's true. My bad, I didn't express myself clearly. In fact, I think I said it backwards, so let me try again. I was trying to say that IMHO there ought to be a different set of demands placed on Sr.B as compared to Novice. Otherwise, if both Sr.B and Novice ride the same lines and the same # of loops, you may get unintended consequences. For example, some of the Sr.B riders might switch to Novice class because there are much fewer Novices compared to the number of people in Sr.B class. It could be really discouraging for a true Novice.

That's why I proposed the idea that if a rider in Novice class rides only 4 loops, then it should cost him a 25% penalty. It acts as a "backflow preventer" against the unintended consequence I mentioned above. But at the same time it gives a brand new Novice the choice to slow down to 4 loops and take his time in the sections. As he progresses, he will be rewarded for having the stamina to do all 5 loops.

In my previous post I said 20%, but that's just mathematically wrong. The multiplier should be 1.25 not 1.2. Now that I think about it a little more, a 25% penalty is not harsh enough. Let's say you rode only 4 loops, and dropped 10 points on every loop. A 25% penalty would mean a final score of 40 x 1.25 = 50. Essentially it says that you would have done equally well on the 5-th loop, but it doesn't account for the extra stamina required, nor for rushing loops 1-4, nor for possible time penalties you would have incurred if you tried to squeeze in the 5th loop. So it should be more like 30%-35%.

Another approach is to calculate a "virtual 5-th loop score" and add that to what you actually dropped in 4 loops. Virtual 5-th loop score could be your actual 4-th loop score plus a 30-minute time penalty (i.e. 15 points). So from the example above, it would be 40 + 10 + 15 = 65.

Confused? I hope not. This is done in other sports. Gymnastics and diving are good examples. Every dive receives an execution score multiplied by degree of difficulty. So in my model of trials scoring, the "execution score" is how many points you actually drop, and "degree of difficulty" is how many loops you ride.

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Post #: 8

RE: Neta class loops - 9/25/2008 12:35:07 PM

bmac

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blackduc:
I would say from your post, YOU have never sat at a scoreing table during an event. I would also guess that you have never been the score keeper for NETA.

Post #: 9

RE: Neta class loops - 9/25/2008 12:44:10 PM

motofire

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Vitaly,

I think Im blind now...

It doesnt have to be that difficult...or complex. It may seem simple on here but when you throw that into the scoring mix the trials results will take as long as calculating enduro scores. That one of the things I like about trials....very soon after the last rider is done results are out and we are outta there.

Vitaly this question is for you....In all the evnts you did...did you find any of the sections too difficult?

I aks you this because your a relatively new rider off road...and very new to trials. So I give your opinion on section difficulty, and event difficulty more weight than a new trials rider like myself or Fuma who have been riding off road for years.

I personally have not met a section I didnt like. I think they have been fine as far as difficulty. The long loops on a bike with only 3 inches of good travel...now that I didnt like.

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RE: Neta class loops - 9/25/2008 12:48:59 PM

danwilms

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Taking up golf

< Message edited by danwilms -- 9/28/2008 10:34:54 PM >

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RE: Neta class loops - 9/25/2008 12:56:20 PM

motofire

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I think what Laser said is just about perfect. His point #4 is key. Smaller steps ups the ranks.

This is exactly why places like TTC and the Teaxahoma Trials clubs went away with classification Nov,Int...etc.

They use a 0-1-2-3-4-5 line classification. I believe 5 is lines like Pee Wee and 0 is our champ line, not positive though. Within those classes are age classifications.

Post #: 12

RE: Neta class loops - 9/25/2008 1:04:53 PM

motofire

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quote:

ORIGINAL: danwilms

So back to the point of this diatribe. What are we trying to fix with changing the number of loops?

I forget...

Actually I think we are trying to fix the fact that NETA only averaged 2.6 Novice riders per event. The good sign is

I hope to ride again next year if my knee agrees. I will ride the Novice class. Selfishly, I want competition. I dont want to compete against one other guy all year.

I cant wait until I am old enough to compete in SR A/B. Those guys have fun and the competiton is great. They are the majority also.

My hope of dropping the Novices to 4 loops we get more "New" riders into trials, or I should say keep them and some of the Sen B's ride novice. I know a few that will.

< Message edited by motofire -- 9/25/2008 1:15:53 PM >

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RE: Neta class loops - 9/25/2008 3:22:19 PM

danwilms

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Taking up golf

< Message edited by danwilms -- 9/28/2008 10:35:29 PM >

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RE: Neta class loops - 9/25/2008 4:36:46 PM

laser1

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I guess my thread above is misplaced, should have been in the Exeter thread and confuses things here.

Im all for dealing with the data - as long as we dont let the tails of the distribution steer the ship. (Just to stay with the nautical theme

)

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RE: Neta class loops - 9/25/2008 4:40:34 PM

TonyC

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Holy complications blackduc!!!

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RE: Neta class loops - 9/25/2008 6:06:55 PM

Jason G

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5 loops- drop your worst one.

That way you can do either. Save your energy and do 4, or go for 5 and get a slight advantage.

I'm not so sure about having only the novice section riders dropping a loop. I ride ADV. and would prefere to do 4 loops.

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RE: Neta class loops - 9/25/2008 6:12:37 PM

motofire

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quote:

ORIGINAL: danwilms

OK we're trying to increase the number of novices. Maybe a thread titled "How to increase novice participation at NETA events"

Now we're focussing

Next we need data, i.e. are we just seeing less new riders or are we losing new riders after 1-2 events? Analyze score sheets.

Once we've analyzed the data the question becomes why and we can speculate until the cows come home but we really need to ask the new riders themselves and they have to believe they will not be ostracized for being truthful.

Dan-
I think this thread is better suited for the "New rider coming back". It seems a lot more people than just novices want a loop dropped.

http://www.nedirtbikes.com/content/m_140578/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#140578

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RE: Neta class loops - 9/25/2008 6:14:19 PM

motofire

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason G
I'm not so sure about having only the novice section riders dropping a loop. I ride ADV. and would prefere to do 4 loops.

Its simple Jason, go to the meeting and make a motion.

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RE: Neta class loops - 9/25/2008 8:06:32 PM

fuma

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Jason's idea about allowing you to drop your worst loop score is a good one. You still get to ride 5 loops if you want and it takes pressure off new riders who are trying to do well. You'd have the chance to drop the loop if you messed up a section and be more willing to try some riskier lines.

Personally I would have no issues of a senior B rider coming down to ride Novice. I am about 3 years away from being senior and would ride novice (unless I practice enough to change to intermediate) to get to do 5 loops. Events are the most practice that I get and another loop is more riding for me :)

I think advanced has more of a need for 4 loops since the sections are harder and the lines are longer at each section.

Post #: 20