RE: rules

RE: rules

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RE: rules - 4/23/2008 3:59:21 PM

bmac

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I will bring my rule book to Brimfield, if you have ??? we can try to find the answer.

< Message edited by bmac -- 4/23/2008 4:26:07 PM >

Post #: 21

RE: rules - 4/23/2008 6:40:16 PM

danwilms

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When Seacoast used to put on events we'd always include in the checkers kit a copy of the rulebook, a sheet explaining how to interpret the scoring rules and a notepad and pencil for recording details of a protest. Makes it easier if a rider complains about a call and the checker can pull out a copy of the rulebook. Really cuts down on the number of protests.

Post #: 22

RE: rules - 4/24/2008 10:19:48 AM

TonyC

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OK, here is another one. After reading the rule book, it states only the skid plate, the footpegs or tires can touch the ground... what about resting your fork leg on a rock, tree etc.

Post #: 23

RE: rules - 4/24/2008 12:48:39 PM

danwilms

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If you're caught it's a dab same as resting a handlebar against a tree.

Post #: 24

RE: rules - 4/24/2008 1:10:31 PM

TonyC

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You mean Ryan Young is wrong?? :)

Post #: 25

RE: rules - 4/24/2008 5:05:37 PM

bmac

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Tony you just stated the rule, there is nothing there that said fork leg. YES Ryan Young would be wrong.
Also the riders use there toes while on the skid plate to push off, if they use both feet I would give them a 2, or 1 a 1. rule says Skid plate,tires or foot pegs, nothing about toes.
I cough Como III in VT at the National useing his front fender.
Also cough a rider with a handlebar against a tree, he was moving all around on the bike, wanted me to think he was doing the balancing act. I heared the bar hit the tree and it stayed on the tree. I showed him the mark he left, after I gave him a 1.

< Message edited by bmac -- 4/26/2008 10:08:47 AM >

Post #: 26

RE: rules - 4/24/2008 5:21:58 PM

bmac

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DAN:
As riders I would think every one would copy the rule book and read it. That way we would have a lot less ??? about the rules. If some one didn't understan after reading a rule he could ask someone, but they seem to be pritty clear cut to me. Maybe thats because I've been around to long :)

Post #: 27

RE: rules - 4/25/2008 12:12:40 AM

danwilms

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Heh heh Don't underestimate Ryan, I don't. Aside from his sheer riding ability there was no one who knew the rules better and how to use them to his advantage. If you were lucky enough to see him ride in his prime you'd know Ryan was also a master of the mental game. Even after Geoff got to the point where he could consistantly outride Ryan it was a couple of years before he could consistantly beat him.

Post #: 28

RE: rules - 4/25/2008 8:42:30 AM

bmac

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DAN::
Ryan's ability is not at ??? here. If a checker doesn't know the rules, the rider will get away with a lot. You and I would pick up on the fork leg for a 1.
BTW I couldn't carry Ryans dirty boots, nevermind ?? his ability.

Post #: 29

RE: rules - 4/25/2008 8:52:20 AM

motofire

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How about this one....

During a trial if a small moveable rock(one that you can kick out of the way) is in your line you can move it?

I was told that you could.

Post #: 30

RE: rules - 4/25/2008 9:10:44 AM

bmac

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John
IN the rules, it says, you can not change a section, during the event. So if you kick that little rock out of your way, it changes the section.
At the Banquet I wanted to see if we could rewrite that rule to say.

You can-not change a section BEFORE or DURING the event, wich a lot of people do.
Riders go look at the sections first, some kick rocks out of the way ETC.

Another rule, checkers don't have to let riders walk the section after the event starts. This way rocks etc wouldn't get moved. Look at it this way, you just rode that section, took a 1 because of that rock, the guy after you moved the rock and got a 0, is that fair to you????

Post #: 31

RE: rules - 4/25/2008 4:05:15 PM

danwilms

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As a checker you have to be on the lookout for section grooming. For some sections where there is really no difference how something is groomed I won't stop them as it's more of a comfort issue.

If it's a section where there is an obvious advantage I'll stop them immediately.

In the case of a major change to a section due to being ridden that fundamentally changes the nature of a section I'll allow the section to be repaired or I'll fix it myself.

For some sections where it's obvious it will degrade over time then I consider it part of the section dynamic that the riders have as one of their decisions to wait for or get ahead of other riders.

There isn't a "one size fits all" answer. and that plays into experiance and how well the checkers understand their role and authority. It's very important for the checkers to know that they are the bosses of their sections and any rider that tries to intimidate them is out of line.

Post #: 32

RE: rules - 4/25/2008 5:27:48 PM

motofire

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Another interesting "grooming" technique I see is with the WTC riders. They always have there minders out there splashing water on the rocks washing away the mud. One step further is Fuji's minder shaking the hell out of a water bottle(like he's mixing up something) and spraying it on the rock.

Post #: 33

RE: rules - 4/26/2008 8:56:50 AM

bmac

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John:
If I saw a minder doing that I would stop him, if he kept doing it I would add a 25pts to the score.
Adding water to clear mud is changeing the section. AS DAN said, the checker is BOSS. During the world or nationals, you have to keep an eye on the minder more then the rider. World Round in Tenn, minder had his leg on the inside of a ribbon pulling it back for more room. He was not seen by the checker, so they got away with it. But that is a no-no.

Post #: 34

RE: rules - 4/26/2008 9:14:38 AM

bmac

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Every one goes into the sections after the event starts, for each loop to see if it has changed.
I'll bet for the most part, no one asked the checker if it was ok to walk the section and just walked in.
The checker could tell you to get out, the rule says if the checker says you can then it is ok, if not you stay out. I think if a checker doesn't allow riders or minders in the sections there wouldn't be any changes to the section other then what happens when the sections are riden. This would take the temptation away to move things. There are to many rules not enforced, this comes from lack of knowing the rules and we have a lot of people helping that don't ride, so you can't expect them to know the rules.

Post #: 35

RE: rules - 4/26/2008 9:39:09 AM

bmac

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???? Would any one be interrested in a CHECKERS SCHOOL ??????

This could be a fun day, set up a few sections, have riders take pts to see if you can get them etc.

We could go threw the rule book, and maybe clear up some things.

Just a thought

Bill Mac
Just need a place to do it.

Post #: 36

RE: rules - 4/26/2008 12:52:26 PM

danwilms

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I think a checkers guide with clear interpetation of the rules would be more useful. A handout that clubs can give to checkers at the checkers meeting like this one Seacoast used to give out.

http://www.newenglandtrials.org/CHEKRULE6.pdf

I also think the rulebook should be gone through next year and some of the ambiguities cleaned up. I used to do that at the beginning of the annual meeting when I was scorekeeper. Just make a list of modifications to clarify and run them rapid fire at the membership before the open rules discussion. By about the fifth requested change their eyes would be getting blurry and the fight was out of them and they'd just vote in anything to shut me up. Unlike the US congress though I didn't use the opportunity to stuff in all kinds of pork barrel stuff. Maybe I should have

. I can just see Leo going through the rules now, B.7.1 NETA shall supply a lifetime supply of cheese for the scorekeeper??

< Message edited by danwilms -- 4/26/2008 1:04:48 PM >

Post #: 37

RE: rules, BENT or BROKEN? - 4/27/2008 9:15:54 PM

Expert007

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quote:

ORIGINAL: danwilms

Heh heh Don't underestimate Ryan, I don't. Aside from his sheer riding ability there was no one who knew the rules better and how to use them to his advantage. If you were lucky enough to see him ride in his prime you'd know Ryan was also a master of the mental game. Even after Geoff got to the point where he could consistantly outride Ryan it was a couple of years before he could consistantly beat him.

Knowing the rules is the best way to break them, especially if the checker is ignorant. I'm sure Ryan knows all the tricks to get away with bending the rules and then some. Yes, a fork leg or a fender against a tree is a point, but mostly checkers aren't that strict. As Dan pointed out, part of the game is to watch how the checker does his version of the scoring. If you see someone roll back half an inch and get a five, then you can bet you'd be better of to take two points to stop a rollback.
At a world round, Dougie Lampkin argued that he didn't dab in a section until the checker took the point off his score. He won the event, beating Fujigas by ONE point. Later, we all saw him dab on the DVD. Sometimes, checkers can be intimidated. I lost some respect for him after that.
Keep the rear brake applied when hopping to avoid backing up. The Pro's turn 90 degrees, and then hop sideways, and then 90 degrees back into position to get back to where they want to be. Remember, BOTH tires have to cross BOTH tracks for a five. It's hard to score, and most checkers won't remember exactly where your tires were unless they knew you were going to be close to crossing them ahead of time!
Running your tires up, down across or against a tree is legal, even if the ribbon goes around it. There must be daylight between your tire and the ribbon to be OUT. So you can ride your tire up a tree and ride right on top of the ribbon and still be IN. However, if the ribbon goes around a stump, and you ride over the middle of the stump, you will be OUT and get a five. Almost everyone did that at the Berry Farm last year in section one and got away with it!
Chaves had a fit when he got 3 points for pushing his bike forward on top of a giant log with his toes in R.I. National. I think it's legal at indoor events, but not anywhere else.
Freddie Croisant had his minder move a rock at a section I was checking in RI and I told him if he didn't put it right back where it was he would get a 5. He argued with me and I said he'd get 25 points if he kept it up. Finally he put it back and when Fred came through, he stopped and moved the rock out of the way with his front tire, and then continued to clean the section. That was an impressive ride!
When it comes to riding 'another classes line' it gets very sketchy. I feel that if there aren't two split markers making a "gate" into a split, it's fair territory. The best thing is to get the checker, tell him what you propose, and show him if you can, then when you ride it, there's no question. There was a really tricky Expert split in Meriden last year that was very easy to take if I rode into the Advanced part of the section, hopped around and made a straight shot at the Expert split. Since I was clearly going where it looked like an Advanced line was, I ran it by the checker first. He said as long as I came back through the Expert split, he didn't have a problem with it.
On the other hand, we had an Expert ask the checker if he could do a similar thing in Salisbury a couple years ago. The checker said OK, but then he rode an entirely different line and was given a 5. Be very clear with the checker as to what you want to do if there are any questions.
Sure, it really sucks that all sections aren't scored consistently, but once you learn how to play the game, you can use that to your advantage!!!
Peace out,
Jareth
:o)

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Post #: 38

RE: breakin the rules - 4/27/2008 9:27:38 PM

Expert007

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bmac
Also cough a rider with a handlebar against a tree, he was moving all around on the bike, wanted me to think he was doing the balancing act. I heared the bar hit the tree and it stayed on the tree. I showed him the mark he left, after I gave him a 1.

(In California that would be a five)....

or if the bike was at a 45 degree angle it would be a five. Anyone had to try and determine what a 45 degree angle looks like? And are we to measure that angle from a level plane or the actual ground?

If your riding along the side of a steep incline of more than, let's say 45 degrees, and your handlebar brushes against a rock, but you keep riding on, would that be a five? one? clean?? Inquiring minds want to know.