Rules? (Full Version)

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TonyC -> Rules? (4/22/2008 10:51:58 AM)

This past weekend brought on many question regarding rules. Reading them doesn't always make sense and sometimes you have to experience the issue in order to understand it, so here are a couple circumstances that I'm unclear on and maybe someone can help...
1. If your foot is down and you pivot it, how many points?
2. Bmac, we spoke of touching a rock above the tape, how about if you were to pivot off a tree that is wrapped in a marker? Most of the tape wraps around trees to define a section. Since the tape goes completely around the tree, the front wheel is never really going past the tape, so this should be legal?
3. Imagine three trees in front of you. On the far left tree is a sign that says B and an arrow pointing to the right. The middle tree has a sign that only says champ, again pointing to the right. The far right tree is wrapped in red tape, obviously indicating the right hand boundary. My understanding is as a B rider, I can go any where to the right of the B marker, including the champ line? If the champ sign also had a b arrow pinting left, then I would assume I had to go between the two. This was the situation in section 7 this past weekend. I went right of the champ sign and was given a five.
I know with the 3 lines it gets confusing. I helped rob C mark the expert sections in Meriden and we really had to think about what we were marking!
4. When snaking through a section, is it OK for one wheel to cross your line?

Thanks for the help.



danwilms -> RE: Rules? (4/22/2008 12:27:16 PM)

1. If your foot slides while pivoting 3
0
Ask the checker when walking the section. Unfortunately an ambigous marking open to interpertation.
yes



STEVEC -> RE: Rules? (4/22/2008 2:38:10 PM)

To add to Dan's reply, the NETA follows NATC rules pretty closely. From the NATC rulebook:

"Scoring will be based on the FIM trials scoring system…"
 
A. Fault Definitions:
2. Foot rotation counts as one point.
3. Sliding a foot counts as three points.
 
B. Failure Definitions:
11. The motorcycle does a complete loop, crossing both its own tracks, with both wheels.

http://www.natctrials.org/documents/2008_rules_1-2-08.pdf



Gord -> RE: Rules? (4/22/2008 4:42:28 PM)

Being new to the competition end of trials, the rules can be discouraging at times. First off, I had a blast at Smith's Farm on the 20th and thank all the people that volunteered their time as checkers, score keepers, sign up folks and all of the NETA and AMA members that helped in any way.
I think that consistency between section checkers is very important though. I had one instance where I put my right foot down on a tight right turn going around a tree and up a ledge. I was stopped with my front break on. When I lifted my foot to continue, the bike slid backwards before I went forwards, up the ledge. I had two,or three, or maybe six more dabs in the section and was happy to get out of there with a three and no injuries!! To my surprise, I got a five because my rear wheel rolled back when my front slid. No problem after the explanation and no arguments. Just wasn't aware of it. Now at another section, I WAS aware of an accidental roll back and assumed I would receive a five, but didn't.
My question is, If both wheels are locked up and you are hopping around, to get in position, and go backwards, is that a five as well? As I have seen this done.
Thanks for the opportunity to have this forum and ask questions. And thanks again for a great event!!



danwilms -> RE: Rules? (4/22/2008 5:03:40 PM)

Click, Psssst (the sound of a can of worms opening) You've hit upon one of the great debates of the past 20 years in trials the no-stop rule. Inappropriately named as in no stop you can stop for a one instead of a five but you get a five for any rollback instead of a five for a rollback with a foot down. Confused? Wecome to the sport of trials. When you see riders waking a section and watching other riders they are not only watching the lines the other riders take from a technical standpoint they are watching how the observer observes. Some are lenient, some are hardasses. Assume all rollbacks will net you a five and count it as lucky when you get away with one. We've all gotten away with something at one time or another and we've all thought a five was a three. In the end it all evens out. 



motofire -> RE: Rules? (4/22/2008 5:04:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gord

I think that consistency between section checkers is very important though. I had one instance where I put my right foot down on a tight right turn going around a tree and up a ledge. I was stopped with my front break on. When I lifted my foot to continue, the bike slid backwards before I went forwards, up the ledge. I had two,or three, or maybe six more dabs in the section and was happy to get out of there with a three and no injuries!! To my surprise, I got a five because my rear wheel rolled back when my front slid. No problem after the explanation and no arguments. Just wasn't aware of it. Now at another section, I WAS aware of an accidental roll back and assumed I would receive a five, but didn't.
My question is, If both wheels are locked up and you are hopping around, to get in position, and go backwards, is that a five as well? As I have seen this done.
Consitancy is good to have but like Baseball Umps strike zones its all interpretive. As long as the checker is consitant with all riders I dont think theres a problem. Thats why some people have issues with clubs replaceing checkers during an event.

I think hopping backwards is a 5. I have seen people do creative front/rear hops to get them back in a section though.



motofire -> RE: Rules? (4/22/2008 5:11:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TonyC

3. Imagine three trees in front of you. On the far left tree is a sign that says B and an arrow pointing to the right. The middle tree has a sign that only says champ, again pointing to the right. The far right tree is wrapped in red tape, obviously indicating the right hand boundary. My understanding is as a B rider, I can go any where to the right of the B marker, including the champ line?
I dont believe you can. This is from the rule book.

H. Riders in all classes must ride the section splits designated for their
class. Riders are not permitted to ride parts of another class’s lines.



TonyC -> RE: Rules? (4/22/2008 5:35:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gord

Being new to the competition end of trials, the rules can be discouraging at times. First off, I had a blast at Smith's Farm on the 20th and thank all the people that volunteered their time as checkers, score keepers, sign up folks and all of the NETA and AMA members that helped in any way.
I think that consistency between section checkers is very important though. I had one instance where I put my right foot down on a tight right turn going around a tree and up a ledge. I was stopped with my front break on. When I lifted my foot to continue, the bike slid backwards before I went forwards, up the ledge. I had two,or three, or maybe six more dabs in the section and was happy to get out of there with a three and no injuries!! To my surprise, I got a five because my rear wheel rolled back when my front slid. No problem after the explanation and no arguments. Just wasn't aware of it. Now at another section, I WAS aware of an accidental roll back and assumed I would receive a five, but didn't.
My question is, If both wheels are locked up and you are hopping around, to get in position, and go backwards, is that a five as well? As I have seen this done.
Thanks for the opportunity to have this forum and ask questions. And thanks again for a great event!!


This is why I brought up the question. If its ok in one instance, how can it not be ok somewhere else? I have no problem telling the checker my score is higher than he saw, but if I was serious about competing, this ould be a real issue!
I saw a rider screw up his approach to a big ledge, back the bike up,prob 2 feet and continue on. No 5! ??



TonyC -> RE: Rules? (4/22/2008 5:37:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: motofire

quote:

ORIGINAL: TonyC

3. Imagine three trees in front of you. On the far left tree is a sign that says B and an arrow pointing to the right. The middle tree has a sign that only says champ, again pointing to the right. The far right tree is wrapped in red tape, obviously indicating the right hand boundary. My understanding is as a B rider, I can go any where to the right of the B marker, including the champ line?
I dont believe you can. This is from the rule book.

H. Riders in all classes must ride the section splits designated for their
class. Riders are not permitted to ride parts of another class’s lines.



there was nothing saying I could not go all the way to the right marker. We all ride parts of another classes line, so that last statement is confusing.
With the addition of 3 splits, I believe John said he was adding a C line at Brimfield, someone should really clarify this.



bmac -> RE: Rules? (4/22/2008 7:24:51 PM)

TonyC
Sec 7:  when you came threw the start,champ spl on right. stright ahead was a chp spl to right also A/B split to the left. You went down and made a right turn. Comeing up the sec there was a step, chp spl about in the middle going right, then a B spl going to the right to the trees. the A line had to go left of the chp spl. Then there was the chp spl on the tree to the right as every one came out. If you went threw any chp spls you would get a 5.
Tony I think you ride ADV if I rember, you only had 2 spls. You should have come in taken a left at the second chp spl, down around then up to the far right of the bigger step and then down and out. This would have put the last chp spl on your right.
 



bmac -> RE: Rules? (4/22/2008 9:15:04 PM)

Tony I just reread your post, I think I understand it now Take the 3 tree thing.

The first tree has a B spl on it to the right. now as soon as you come to the chp spl on the 2nd tree, this is where your split stops. No one can ride threw a split that is not for them. There is a lot of the section that every one rides. BUT when you come to your split you go threw it.
hope this helps, we can talk at Brimfield.
Bmac



bmac -> RE: Rules? (4/22/2008 9:28:44 PM)

Tony, checkers have the rule of the roost so to speak. If they let people back up it has to be for every one, for the most part they are cositent. Like Dan said it all comes out in the wash.

Tony in sec 5 nov. Was the rider in the sec or was he coming up to it? You have to remember front axle in front axle out. That start was on a good angle.



bmac -> RE: Rules? (4/22/2008 9:40:47 PM)

Gord, This is one of  the most common 5s.
      When you have your brakes locked and hopping around, you think that you are in the same plane, but you are driffting backward and a good checker will get you for it. The rule is NO backing up. So no one should alow it no matter what. I think every one should read the rule book. Like if you are stoped with a foot down and take a hand off the bars that is a 5.



danwilms -> explicit vs implicit (4/22/2008 9:59:23 PM)

This is an excellent illustration of the unintended consequences of a seemingly insignificant rules change. Going from two classes per section A/B to three (added C line) or four (added C line + Champ) The only way to eliminate all confusion under current rules is to mark all splits explicitly. This is in line with what the national and FIM gate system has done and is the explicit solution. It's a lot more work for the people setting up the event.

The implicit solution would be to change the rule book to say that in the case of non-explicit marking a class must ride the line of the nearest higher class marking. That could lead to some interesting interpretation of a class line.



TonyC -> RE: explicit vs implicit (4/23/2008 9:20:41 AM)

Its interesting that Dan and Steve gave two different answers to the "easiest" scenerio.

Bmac, I have all intention on getting to know you better at Brimfield. At the very least, it seems to pay to know the big cheese. :) "Fury" admitted to cutting the course several times AND skipping sections. Not even a slap on the wrist? This topic got me to read the rules and wouldn't he have recieved a 10 for missing sections?

I still think I'm right about section 7.



motofire -> RE: explicit vs implicit (4/23/2008 10:05:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TonyC

"Fury" admitted to cutting the course several times AND skipping sections. Not even a slap on the wrist? This topic got me to read the rules and wouldn't he have recieved a 10 for missing sections?
IMO no...It says sections must be done in order. He did them in order he just went on long trail ride after section 6 on his last loop. He did the absolute correct thing I believe.

"D. During competition, all sections shall be ridden in strict numerical
sequence, the last section shall be followed by the first section, i.e.
Loop: 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 or loop: 2-3-4-5-6-7-8-1
1. Riding sections out of sequence, i.e. 1-1 2-2 or 3-2-1 is considered
cutting the course and subject to a 25 point penalty under rule III, M.
2. If a section is skipped, and the rider rides a subsequent section
designated for his class the rider will receive a ten-point penalty for each
section missed."



TonyC -> RE: explicit vs implicit (4/23/2008 11:20:45 AM)

OK, so it is not skipped unless he rode another section. Kind of like he was running out of gas, so he went back to the pits, filled up and the rode the loop to the next section?



STEVEC -> RE: explicit vs implicit (4/23/2008 12:02:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TonyC

Its interesting that Dan and Steve gave two different answers to the "easiest" scenerio.



I was just expanding on Dan's answer. Pivoting (rotation) a foot is 1 point and sliding it is 3. Also, crossing your track with just one wheel is OK. I think he'd agree. I was only addressing questions #1 and #4 BTW.



blackduc98 -> RE: explicit vs implicit (4/23/2008 1:06:51 PM)

It is possible to move the bike backwards without actually rolling backwards. TimT showed how this can easily be done by hopping the front wheel first, and then hopping the rear wheel. The bike only moves sideways at any given point in time, but the overall effect is to shimmy it backwards relative to the starting position. So is this a 5, or is this allowed?



bmac -> RE: explicit vs implicit (4/23/2008 3:35:38 PM)

Tony never tell the checker you got more points. Its up to the checker to see them, some times you luck out and they miss one.

blackduc98 draw a line on the ground at the rear of the rear tire. Get on the bike lock the brakes, start hopping like you say, stop, if your tire is on the other side of the line you went backwards. It doesn't matter how much over the line it is eather. 

When I check and some one is hopping,I take point of refrance on a rock, log etc, keep eye contact with it if they go past it is a 5.



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