Smith Berry, Adv/Ext Section 1 quesiton (Full Version)

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NETA160 -> Smith Berry, Adv/Ext Section 1 quesiton (4/23/2008 8:52:28 AM)

Guys,
I just read the post on Rules.  Good stuff.

Here is another one.  4 Experts and 1 Champ debated this situation during the event and last night when two of went back to reride the sections. 

Section 1 for advanced/expert/champs had a split on a tree midway through the section.  Everyone had to approach the tree while riding across the side of a hill.  The tree was in front of everyone and it had an A Marker pointing up the hill and a B Marker pointing down the hill.  The B line gave the Advance riders more space at the bottom to turn and go back up the hill to go over a ledge at the top of the hill.  Everyone had to go over the ledge at the top.

There was confusion with the Expert/Champ riders about where they could go relative to the A/B split on the tree in question.  Here are some scenarios I witnessed.

1) Some Experts turned right as they approached the tree with the A/B split.  These riders went to the bottom of the hill where the Advanced riders went.  At the bottom of the hill they turned sharp but stayed to the left of the Tree with the A/B marker (stayed inside the split).  Checker allowed this.  My interpretation is that this was a 5 since the Expert was about 20 feet inside the B line area.  At most, I though an Expert/Champ could pout a half bike length inside the B area.

2) I asked the Checker if staying left of the Tree (as the A line split indicated) but dropping down to the right immediately AFTER the tree was allowed.  Answer:  Yes if you want a 5.  I believe this was a wrong interpretation by the Checker since I would have passed the tree (stayed left of the tree as the marker indicated) and there was clearly a 10x10' foot ribboned area below the tree that would allow Expert/Champs to turn around and go back up.  Bottom line, I didn't take that line but still thought I should have been able to.  BMAC...what was your intention here???

3) Around the 4th loop, I noticed some Experts were taking the line I just explained in #2 above.  The checker said it was okay to take that line too...so I did and got a 1 and a clean on my last two loops.

4) Some Expert/Champs stayed completely left of the Tree with A/B split (never dropped down the hill before or after the tree).  This was the hardest line but there was no confusion about it.

Summary, I saw Experts taking three different approaches to the A/B split.  I don't think scenario #1 was right but I could be wrong.  The third scenario (going passed the tree and dropping down the hill) didn't appear to be going into a B Split area so I believe it should have been allowed.

What would you have interpreted?

In any event, I had a really good time at the event.  The sections were the most groomed sections that I recall ever riding.  Very nice.
Tim



motofire -> RE: Smith Berry, Adv/Ext Section 1 quesiton (4/23/2008 9:11:00 AM)

IMO I think both 1 and 2 should be ok, definately 2. As long as you make your gate cant you go anywhere within the ribbon?


This is going to be hard to explain but relavent. I saw a vid last year of a world round where there was avery steep climb up a very long ledge. On the bottom was a WTC gate and on the top was a WTC gate. Most riders were shooting up the ledge and not making the top. Finally one guy made the 1st gate and came right back down the hill. He went so far out of his area around the side of the section and made it to the top by simply climbing a shallow slope. Got to the top and with only a tire width of ledge to ride on he rode around the top split. Almost sounds similar to what your talking about Tim. I know its WTC and may be a little different.



TonyC -> RE: Smith Berry, Adv/Ext Section 1 quesiton (4/23/2008 9:23:32 AM)

Sounds like Tim is saying the confusion arises as to which side of the tree you are allowed to ride as an expert. Good question, I could see it both arguments.



NETA160 -> RE: Smith Berry, Adv/Ext Section 1 quesiton (4/23/2008 2:15:31 PM)

John, I thought that you had to assume an imaginary line from the corner to the tree and NOT pass more than a half bike length into the B area.  This line of thinking stems from the rules for events in which markers are used instead of ribbons.  I haven't seen markers used in place of ribbons in many years but the approach is still in the rule book...I think.

In any event, the best thing to do is ask the Trial Master before the event starts and also the Checker, for the section in question.



bmac -> RE: Smith Berry, Adv/Ext Section 1 quesiton (4/23/2008 2:56:27 PM)

Tim, on sec #1 my intention was, A riders could come in and go left or they could drop down and come back left of the tree. The B riders had to drop and go around the tree. If I had of put the split on the right to where it was then the B riders would have got the 5 for going threw the wrong split backwards. I tried to face splits so they would face the start. I had a few guys look at that and every one said it was fine. May be I should have put the A split where it was but put the B split around the corner, could that of helped. This is the first I've heard of this, I had askd Danny Allen to come to me after the event, to get some input, he never said anything about sec 1.
Bill



bmac -> RE: Smith Berry, Adv/Ext Section 1 quesiton (4/23/2008 3:21:14 PM)

Tim I'm not sure where you are getting the bike lengh into another split, that would be a 5 for going into the wrong split.

When we used arrows at one point you could go out as far as you wanted, as long as you came back in between the same flags. Years later that was changed to 1 bike lengh and still is. Now useing the ribbon you can't do it. There is nothing in the rule book that you can go a bike lengh into another split, that I have seen. Unless I misst it.



NETA160 -> RE: Smith Berry, Adv/Ext Section 1 question (4/23/2008 9:34:38 PM)

Hi Bill,
Like a few others, I didn't interpret the A/B split exactly they way you intended.  Danny took the hardest line--He stayed to the left of the tree, turned left up the hill and never dropped down before or after the tree.  He may not have seen the other possibilities or maybe he thought they weren't allowed.  Because this was the hardest line, I looked for alternatives, like others did.

I don't think YOU made any mistakes with the A/B split.  I think it is a matter of having a consistent way to plan  and to interpret them.  Easier said than done.

In any event, I don't see any logic, rule, etc. that wouldn't permit the following three lines for A line riders.
1) Where the arrow points left on the tree (A riders), turn right before the tree, do a u-turn, and come back toward the tree (Tree is on your right).  This was one of your intended lines for A riders.
2) Where the arrow points left on the tree (A riders), stay left as you ride by the tree (tree on your right), take a sharp right after it, do a u-turn, and come back up the hill.  From a riding perspective, I am always on the left side of the tree...like the marker says.  This was not your intended line for A riders.
3) Where the arrow points left on the tree (A riders), stay left as you ride by the tree (tree on your right), take a sharp left toward the exit.  I think we all agree that this scenario is clear.

Am I missing something here, or am I being stupid again?
Tim



danwilms -> RE: Smith Berry, Adv/Ext Section 1 quesiton (4/24/2008 2:17:16 AM)

Hey this fits well with the other question of explicit marking but the first solution mentioned was the best, ask the checker. The problem is the checker didn't stick to his first answer. A fine example of what happens when a checker fails to be consistant. There is no way to make the situation fair in this case without throwing out the section.

The key question regarding the split flag is how do you interpret the flag marking rules when there is only one flag? If there are two flags that you can consider a boundry then the approximate one bike length rule can be applied. With only one flag you are trying to determine a bike length between the one flag and ???. Some arbitrary point on the boundry ribbon?



NETA160 -> RE: Smith Berry, Adv/Ext Section 1 quesiton (4/24/2008 6:46:35 AM)

Agreed..."if in doubt, ask".  But it would still be nice to have clarity for interpretting splits so that you can walk a section in the morning and consider all possibilities, and to avoid disagreements mid-trial.

Dan, in this case, there were two markers one above the other on the same tree.  One pointing left as you approached the tree and the other right.



TonyC -> RE: Smith Berry, Adv/Ext Section 1 quesiton (4/24/2008 10:17:53 AM)

Asking the checker doesn't always work. Perfect example, Meriden Expert Section 6. After you went up the first hit, you had to make a right hand turn and come back down the hill. B line went left of the stump,wrapped with yellow tape, A to the right. The problem arose immediately thereafter. Rob designed the section so there was another split on the way down the hill. He wrapped the yellow tape around the second tree but did not place a marker there. The A line was supposed to pass in front of the tree on the way down the hill, whereas the b line stayed to the right. Before I continue, take a second, imagine the section and think about how it should be ridden.
Because there was  no marker, everyone stayed to the right. No big deal, A and champ got an easy (easier) line and everyone was happy right?? Not exactly. Because there were two trees wrapped in yellow, but only one marker, the checker interpreted this as he was to draw an imaginary yellow line, connecting the stump and tree through the section, thus making the B line VERY difficult.

This sport has some very deep thinkers! Just like Danny may not have noticed Tims first two choices, ( or didn't need them) I never considered either of the two. My point being, we may think we are very clear as to how the section should be ridden, but to others, there always seems to be some other creative route.



NETA160 -> RE: Smith Berry, Adv/Ext Section 1 quesiton (4/24/2008 10:44:35 AM)

Hi Tony,
I talked to the checker with Keith Dumaine about the yellow ribbon on the stump that didn't have a marker.  He was unsure.  By the time Keith and I arrived, some riders had already passed through.  Some took the harder route, some didn't.  If I recall correctly, I took the easier route the rest of the day.



danwilms -> RE: Smith Berry, Adv/Ext Section 1 quesiton (4/24/2008 12:46:40 PM)

I think you missed my point. I meant two markers for the same class separated by some distance making a split boundary that you could go across and invoking the "one bike length between flags" rule. It might be a good time to draw up an illustrated guide to section and loop marking and how to interpret the rules. As more new people put on events we tend to drift away from set methods and events become less homogeneous in marking. It does make it sometimes confusing even for us long time riders. There's really no reason anybody should get lost on a 1mile loop. One of the things I've been mulling over for the past few years was an event kit that a club could buy that included all the markings, section and loop. If bought in quantity it would save the clubs money and lead to more standardized marking.



TonyC -> RE: Smith Berry, Adv/Ext Section 1 quesiton (4/24/2008 1:10:04 PM)

I understood your point. Just giving an example of how the markings can be interpreted several ways. More importantly, the checker doesn't always have the answer.

My comment about section 6 has nothing to do with the checker. I've seen and talked to him at several events and he always does a good job.



BFives -> RE: Smith Berry, Adv/Ext Section 1 quesiton (4/24/2008 1:46:01 PM)

Tim,u are not stupid. All 3 examples are correct. Thats the way we always set up section. It gives riders more lines to think about.To cut down before or after the tree/split can give u a better approach of the next obstacle. Tony, there are no imaginary yellow tape between trees. If there was yellow tape on tree with no split signs it needed to get corrected before rides or taken off tree.The bike length rule is for if u use markers instead of red, blue or white ribbon outside bondries.Most would agree to use ribbon, it makes it easier for both , checkers and riders.  Butch
 



bmac -> RE: Smith Berry, Adv/Ext Section 1 quesiton (4/24/2008 3:25:20 PM)

Tim what section had two markers on the same tree?? I was at the berry farm today and the split marker was still on the tree in sec #1 EX. There were only 2 splits in that sec.

#2 above:: If you had the tree on your right and took a hard right you would be going backwards threw the B line. If you came back up as you said, that would be going threw the B split again. " 5"

I though if any section would have a problem it would have been section 2 EX. ( 8 splits )

This is good I am learning, I can't expect people to know what I am thinking. It was clear to me LOL. 



bmac -> RE: Smith Berry, Adv/Ext Section 1 quesiton (4/24/2008 4:20:08 PM)

I would like to bring up a couple of points.
We have a rule book and in it it says, you need a no. plate and tells just what has to be on it etc. Why do some people seem to think it is for other people and not them?????

Also we have a rule that says, NO riding backwards or cutting the course. BUT we get the people that think the rule is for every one else and cut the course. ????

I can't see why people like to BUCK the system. But get mad if given points for it.
Just a pet PEEV I guess, for me

We have a helmet rule, stoped a rider just after he got on the pegs, no helmet. He was only going to the other side of the field he said to put his bike up for sale. Then he got mad when I told him to put a helmet on or push it .



danwilms -> RE: Smith Berry, Adv/Ext Section 1 quesiton (4/24/2008 4:39:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TonyC
I understood your point. Just giving an example of how the markings can be interpreted several ways. More importantly, the checker doesn't always have the answer.


Hi Tony I was actually saying Tim missed the point saying there were two markers on one tree. I think he thought I meant for different classes when I meant two split flags for the same class separated by a distance with no intervening ribbon would call into use the one bike length between markers rule.

I always try to mark the $&^* out of every section just to avoid confusion but then again it is part of the game. One of the reasons I alway liked marking in crews of three. Makes it much more likely someone will go, "Hey, where are you supposed to go from here?" when test riding.



TonyC -> RE: Smith Berry, Adv/Ext Section 1 quesiton (4/24/2008 4:46:22 PM)

bmac, those are easy ones... because neither rule is enforced!!

With the various interpretation of the rules, I'm pretty sure I wasn't guilty of cutting the course, just took a very wide line. :)



bmac -> RE: Smith Berry, Adv/Ext Section 1 quesiton (4/24/2008 4:53:51 PM)

Tony a wide line that made you miss the pit. LOL



leooshea -> RE: Smith Berry, Adv/Ext Section 1 quesiton (5/2/2008 9:45:18 AM)

Maybe this will stir the pot some more but here is my interpretation of the rules.

There is a marker on a tree pointing for the A line to go to the right of the tree. All of the A riders must stay to the right of the tree and within the markers or ribbon for the section. The whole section is available to all riders as long as they do not miss one of their markers or cross their line with both wheels.

I was not there to see the section but from the discussion it seems that it was clear that the A riders had to stay to the right of the tree; other than that they have the rest of the section to use. Dropping down to the bottom to get a run at the ledge either before or after is not a problem as long as you do not cross your path.

If the sections were ribboned there are no imaginary lines; if the outside perimeter of the section is marked by markers with open areas between the markers there is some discretion as far as to exact location of the boundary. That is why most events now use ribbon.

In nationals the use of gates has become common. To stop a higher class rider from entering a part of the section a set of markers are set up to designate that part of the section as a "B" line. If this is done correctly no there class may pass through that gate in either direction. New England has not adopted this rule as yet.

In either case from what I have read there was only one marker with A and B markers so a gate was not set up. If New England wants to start using gates it should be brought up at the annual meeting.

Hope to see you all at Brimfield, I will not be riding but want to be there for a while in the morning.

Leo



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