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Section Gates - 8/13/2010 12:13:00 AM   
Expert007


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Joined: 12/31/2006
From: A place far, far away from here. (Saco, Maine)
Status: offline 		Anyone know if you can go through a split gate from either direction?
I can't find a rule for that.
It seems to suggest there is only one way, but what is the criteria?
Jareth


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RE: Section Gates - 8/13/2010 1:49:24 AM   
motofire


Posts: 895
Joined: 8/16/2002
Status: offline 		No you cannot. It's in the Scoring System of the rulebook in the section under when a 5 is given. The top of page 15.

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RE: Section Gates - 8/13/2010 11:45:28 AM   
motofire


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Joined: 8/16/2002
Status: offline 		Laser brought to my attention that the section I referenced states a rider cannot pass through another classes gate, forward or backwards. Neither him or I could find anything in the rulebook, or the NATC rulebook that says a rider has to go through their own gate a specified direction.

I thought it was specified...Anyone point out where it says you have to pass through a gate in a certain direction?

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RE: Section Gates - 8/13/2010 1:06:01 PM   
Expert007


Posts: 791
Joined: 12/31/2006
From: A place far, far away from here. (Saco, Maine)
Status: offline 		  A.     FIVE POINTS shall be awarded:
                                          i.     When requested by a competitor opting to not ride a section.
                                         ii.     When a rider does not have both hands on the handlebars when footing while the motorcycle is stopped.
                                        iii.     When the engine stops while footing or while any other part of the machine, except for the tires, is used for support without forward motion. The motorcycle must be moving forward while footing with a dead engine to avoid a five (5). (i.e.: pushing bike out of section, while astride the bike, is not a 5)
                                       iv.     If the handlebar is used for support and the motorcycle is beyond 45-degrees from vertical. (i.e.: handlebar touching the ground.)
                                         v.     For any backward motion of the motorcycle.
                                       vi.     When the motorcycle or rider breaks, or permanently displaces, a boundary ribbon or flag, or marker in a section through direct contact. Breaking or displacement of a ribbon or marker due to indirect shock of impact is not a failure.
                                      vii.     When either tire of the motorcycle is clearly outside the section boundaries while the rider is attempting the section.  If the tire is on the section boundary (i.e. on top of the ribbon or flag) it is still considered in the section. (AMA rule:  In the case of running over a taped boundary, there must be ground visible between the tape and the tire and the tire must be on the ground on the out-of-bounds side of the tape. A gate for a class other than your own constitutes a boundary. It is permitted to float one wheel over an exterior section boundary but not both tires, i.e., jumping the bike over a boundary is a failure.) Riders should confer with Checkers regarding section boundaries before entering a section.
                                     viii.     When both tires cross their own path while in the section. (AMA rule: The motorcycle does a complete loop, crossing both its own tracks, with both wheels.)
                                       ix.     When a rider passes through the “start” gates of a section more than once.
                                         x.     When a rider dismounts from the machine and has both feet on the ground on the same side of or behind the machine.
                                       xi.     Floating both tires over a boundary.
                                      xii.     When a rider receives outside assistance.
                                     xiii.     When a rider begins a section attempt without the checker’s acknowledgment.
                                    xiv.     When a rider fails to pass through all of the gates for their class.
                                      xv.     When a rider passes through a gate of another class, backward or forward. Breaking the vertical plane of the gate with either axle is considered passing through the gate.
                                    xvi.     To avoid a 5 point penalty the front wheel must go through the rider’s own gate before the rear wheel.

Bill says you go through the section from start to end with the split markers on the side you're facing. Makes sense. But, when there are 3 different sets of splits and the section is not a straight line, it starts to get confusing.
I can do it so it will work out in the end, but I think it should be clarified in the rulebook. Either a rider can go through a gate from either direction, or it should specify the criteria for the correct direction.

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RE: Section Gates - 8/13/2010 3:15:02 PM   
STEVEC


Posts: 23
Joined: 1/29/2007
Status: offline 		I've spectated at many world rounds and nationals plus checked quite a few nationals and never thought much about which way you ride through gates. It seemed obvious that you'd enter from the direction where the markers face you - where you can read them. It isn't spelled out in the NATC suplimental rules, probably because it's never been questioned. I've checked sections where it wasn't obvious which order gates should be ridden in but I was told by the NATC steward that it could be in any order as long as they entered gates from the correct direction plus they didn't break any other rules like crossing your own line.

The only way I can think of where a marker might be mounted so it's not obvious which side is facing you would be on those wire wickets stuck into rocks. I've seen them stapled to pretty skinny tree limbs but always with the limb behind the intended direction of entry. I remember last year when someone suggested printing gate markers on both sides. It would help in this situation if they weren't.

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RE: Section Gates - 8/13/2010 3:19:07 PM   
Expert007


Posts: 791
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From: A place far, far away from here. (Saco, Maine)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: STEVEC
The only way I can think of where a marker might be mounted so it's not obvious which side is facing you would be on those wire wickets stuck into rocks. I've seen them stapled to pretty skinny tree limbs but always with the limb behind the intended direction of entry. I remember last year when someone suggested printing gate markers on both sides. It would help in this situation if they weren't.

Thanks Steve,
And this is a good example. The gate markers ARE printed on both sides, so someone could just as easily come the wrong way round.
The only place where I'm using the wire holders is in a section where if you came in from the other side there would be no place to go, but that isn't always the case.
Thanks,
Jareth

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RE: Section Gates - 8/13/2010 4:57:04 PM   
Expert007


Posts: 791
Joined: 12/31/2006
From: A place far, far away from here. (Saco, Maine)
Status: offline 		From an e-mail:
BTW: that was a really good question on the gates. My take is that since its not defined - it's OK to ride both ways if you can do so w/o running afoul of other rules...Prior to your pointing it out, I would have assumed that you can only go one way through the gate. 

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RE: Section Gates - 8/16/2010 12:48:33 PM   
STEVEC


Posts: 23
Joined: 1/29/2007
Status: offline 		I hope nobody takes my comments to mean that it's OK to ride through gates in either direction. People would still be penalized for passing through from the unintended direction as in the past. Jareth, I'd suggest blocking out the arrow on the back of the markers if they are visible.

No matter what, ask the checker beforehand if there's any doubt.

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RE: Section Gates - 8/16/2010 2:55:19 PM   
Expert007


Posts: 791
Joined: 12/31/2006
From: A place far, far away from here. (Saco, Maine)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: STEVEC

I hope nobody takes my comments to mean that it's OK to ride through gates in either direction. People would still be penalized for passing through from the unintended direction as in the past. Jareth, I'd suggest blocking out the arrow on the back of the markers if they are visible.

No matter what, ask the checker beforehand if there's any doubt.

It seems to me, that whether or not you can 'see' the split markers from both sides or not, you are going through the split, as stated in the rules, from either direction, you just can't go through from BOTH directions. Maybe the NATC will make a ruling after some riders try it.

What the heck does the NATC know anyhow? I watched the checker video and they give a clean for someone who pushes with his toes! That would be a 3 at any event I ever checked!

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RE: Section Gates - 8/16/2010 3:08:15 PM   
motofire


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Status: offline 		I thought as long as your feet are on the pegs you could use your toes?

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RE: Section Gates - 8/16/2010 3:33:37 PM   
laser1

 

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Joined: 9/10/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: STEVEC

I hope nobody takes my comments to mean that it's OK to ride through gates in either direction. People would still be penalized for passing through from the unintended direction as in the past. Jareth, I'd suggest blocking out the arrow on the back of the markers if they are visible.

No matter what, ask the checker beforehand if there's any doubt.


Has this been brought up and ruled on before? I would have agreed with you before I tried to find it in the rule book. However, I can't find where the gate direction polarity is defined for your own class or any resulting penalties. I tend to think it really doesn't matter. On the rare occasion someone finds the hot cheater line, then good for them for being sharp.
Post #: 11
RE: Section Gates - 8/16/2010 3:35:17 PM   
Expert007


Posts: 791
Joined: 12/31/2006
From: A place far, far away from here. (Saco, Maine)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: laser1

quote:

ORIGINAL: STEVEC

I hope nobody takes my comments to mean that it's OK to ride through gates in either direction. People would still be penalized for passing through from the unintended direction as in the past. Jareth, I'd suggest blocking out the arrow on the back of the markers if they are visible.

No matter what, ask the checker beforehand if there's any doubt.


Has this been brought up and ruled on before? I would have agreed with you before I tried to find it in the rule book. However, I can't find where the gate direction polarity is defined for your own class or any resulting penalties. I tend to think it really doesn't matter. On the rare occasion someone finds the hot cheater line, then good for them for being sharp.

I agree, but what if you do that and the checker gives you a '5' anyhow? It really should be defined in the rulebook.

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RE: Section Gates - 8/16/2010 3:36:59 PM   
STEVEC


Posts: 23
Joined: 1/29/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: motofire

I thought as long as your feet are on the pegs you could use your toes?


I questioned someone about that at a world round years ago and they said it was OK - they don't allot points. You don't see it much at Nationals but they do allow it.

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RE: Section Gates - 8/16/2010 3:38:04 PM   
laser1

 

Posts: 101
Joined: 9/10/2007
Status: offline 		FWIW: At the Exeter NATC event, we were instructed that the toes could be used, if kept in front of, and in contact with, the pegs. I didnt search for a NETA "toes" spec, but it certainly seems like an adopted style when watching WTC videos.
Post #: 14
RE: Section Gates - 8/16/2010 3:44:11 PM   
STEVEC


Posts: 23
Joined: 1/29/2007
Status: offline 		[/quote]
I agree, but what if you do that and the checker gives you a '5' anyhow? It really should be defined in the rulebook.
[/quote]

I suspect the TM would stick with the checker's decision - better to be safe and ask first. The intent has always been for gates to be ridden in one direction as far as I know.

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RE: Section Gates - 8/16/2010 3:46:00 PM   
laser1

 

Posts: 101
Joined: 9/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Expert007

quote:

ORIGINAL: laser1

quote:

ORIGINAL: STEVEC

I hope nobody takes my comments to mean that it's OK to ride through gates in either direction. People would still be penalized for passing through from the unintended direction as in the past. Jareth, I'd suggest blocking out the arrow on the back of the markers if they are visible.

No matter what, ask the checker beforehand if there's any doubt.


Has this been brought up and ruled on before? I would have agreed with you before I tried to find it in the rule book. However, I can't find where the gate direction polarity is defined for your own class or any resulting penalties. I tend to think it really doesn't matter. On the rare occasion someone finds the hot cheater line, then good for them for being sharp.

I agree, but what if you do that and the checker gives you a '5' anyhow? It really should be defined in the rulebook.


For this season, Maybe a simple mention of it in the checkers meeting will suffice?
Post #: 16
RE: Section Gates - 8/16/2010 3:53:12 PM   
tbutland

 

Posts: 38
Joined: 1/25/2008
Status: offline 		In the case of the gate direction, at most world rounds and nationals the gate arrows are only printed on one side, so logic says if you don't see any arrows that's not an intended gate. It makes sense to mount the gate arrows so they are clearly visible on the intended direction the TM wants the rider to go thru, which means staple them on the side of the tree you want the rider to enter from. In the case of the NETA where we are using double printed gate arrows (by the way which I think is a great time saver for the TM and saves gate cards as well)..the TM has to be sure to staple them on the intended side of the tree or stake so the arrow is clearly visible and try to avoid stapling them so they can be seen from the un-intended side. I agree it should be clarified in the NETA rulebook, which I think the board could do without a membership vote, as its a documentation omission or error, like a typo and I would be ok with the BOD putting something in for clarification until we have our next annual meeting.
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RE: Section Gates - 8/16/2010 6:24:51 PM   
Expert007


Posts: 791
Joined: 12/31/2006
From: A place far, far away from here. (Saco, Maine)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: motofire

I thought as long as your feet are on the pegs you could use your toes?


Some will argue that point, and they get away with it at the World Level. But the rules specify that only the skidplate, footpegs and tires can touch for no points. There is nothing that says anything about toes on pegs. I remember a checker giving a rider 2 points for using his toes at the National in RI a few years ago, and he made a big stink about it. But when it went to the officials, the points stayed.
Of course there is the 'incidental' touching; if your toes rubbed a rock as you went over it, but you didn't 'gain support' or 'advantage' it could slide. But, pushing with your toes is definitely gaining advantage and not 'incidental'.
Bottom line, if I'm checking, the rider will get a point for every time he uses his toes to push.


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RE: Section Gates - 8/16/2010 6:29:34 PM   
Expert007


Posts: 791
Joined: 12/31/2006
From: A place far, far away from here. (Saco, Maine)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tbutland

In the case of the gate direction, at most world rounds and nationals the gate arrows are only printed on one side, so logic says if you don't see any arrows that's not an intended gate. It makes sense to mount the gate arrows so they are clearly visible on the intended direction the TM wants the rider to go thru, which means staple them on the side of the tree you want the rider to enter from. In the case of the NETA where we are using double printed gate arrows (by the way which I think is a great time saver for the TM and saves gate cards as well)..the TM has to be sure to staple them on the intended side of the tree or stake so the arrow is clearly visible and try to avoid stapling them so they can be seen from the un-intended side. I agree it should be clarified in the NETA rulebook, which I think the board could do without a membership vote, as its a documentation omission or error, like a typo and I would be ok with the BOD putting something in for clarification until we have our next annual meeting.

I think there are very few situations where you could possibly even go through the wrong way. I feel the rule should simply state that you can go through from either direction, but not more than once. Just so there isn't any confusion.
When I use the wire gate holders, the marker is clearly visible from both sides, so I'd have to cover one side up if it needed to be directional. I like the two sided markers, they are great for set-up and they make it easier to see the splits from different places in the section.


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RE: Section Gates - 8/16/2010 6:31:41 PM   
Expert007


Posts: 791
Joined: 12/31/2006
From: A place far, far away from here. (Saco, Maine)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: laser1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Expert007

quote:

ORIGINAL: laser1

quote:

ORIGINAL: STEVEC

I hope nobody takes my comments to mean that it's OK to ride through gates in either direction. People would still be penalized for passing through from the unintended direction as in the past. Jareth, I'd suggest blocking out the arrow on the back of the markers if they are visible.

No matter what, ask the checker beforehand if there's any doubt.


Has this been brought up and ruled on before? I would have agreed with you before I tried to find it in the rule book. However, I can't find where the gate direction polarity is defined for your own class or any resulting penalties. I tend to think it really doesn't matter. On the rare occasion someone finds the hot cheater line, then good for them for being sharp.

I agree, but what if you do that and the checker gives you a '5' anyhow? It really should be defined in the rulebook.


For this season, Maybe a simple mention of it in the checkers meeting will suffice?

And what would I mention? That riders can or cannot go through from either direction? I will say they can, since it isn't specified.

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